what is traditonal

Traditional Muzzleloaders, Flintlocks, Pistols, front stuffer kits, etc.
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Whitewolf
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Whitewolf » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:38 pm

Longhunter-
Cotton Volrath (you may know him or of him) told me once that the Rendezvous he and his wife went to, traditional was any weapon design pre 1840. That sound 'bout right?

Captchee-
If I ever have a question about the history of a weapon, you're the one I'm askin'!
Last edited by Whitewolf on Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by allanburden » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:51 pm

I saw a magazine article somewhere on the MS and LA thing somewhere, maybe peterson's hunting, but anyways the understanding I had was that one would have to use a Sharp's rifle or other type of old buffalo hunter type rifle is all I can get my mind to spit out tonight for some reason.

I definitely see the attempted advancement of what is attempted to be defined as traditional.

Over here in SC we too have an anything goes bowseason in the upstate. Heck, in the lower state come August 15 grab your centerfire and start shooting until January 1st. Is there any longer season out there? It's way too dang hot and humid here for me to get my rear out in the middle of August and assassinate skeeters. Back to the upstate, generally there is a Muzzleloader season from Oct. 1-10. ML's being defined as any single shot, front loading firearm. There is no primitive designation here.

As for the old two cam compounds...what about the truly old 4 wheel Bear and Jennings? Where do they stand?
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Longhunter » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:05 am

Longhunter-
Cotton Volrath (you may know him or of him) told me once that the Rendezvous he and his wife went to, traditional was any weapon design pre 1840. That sound 'bout right?
Greywolfy, I knew Cotton very well. He was a crusty old Iron worker...a real character :) He was probably talking about muzzleloading guns wasn't he?
As for the old two cam compounds...what about the truly old 4 wheel Bear and Jennings? Where do they stand?
allenburden, The term "Traditional" was never used in archery until after the compound came out in the early 70's. Compounds took the archery world by storm...just about everyone, with a few exceptions...me included, I've never owned one... started using the new arrow slinging marvel. There had to be a word that would describe the difference between the two and traditional was that word.

I don't think "traditional" should be used to describe the very early compounds...even though there's a huge difference between those and the compounds of today. If you did it would surely confuse :? a lot of people who are already confused about what is traditional and what isn't... :lol: :lol:

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Whitewolf » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:55 pm

Longhunter-
He was a crusty old Iron worker...a real character He was probably talking about muzzleloading guns wasn't he?
Boy! You hit the nail on the head. He's a character with a heart of gold. He and Bea live about a mile from me.

He let me use his shop for about a month while I modified, inlaid and assembled a Blue Ridge flinter. I removed all the blue and he showed me how to rust it. We removed the breech plug and he showed me how to modify it to get a better spark and to make cleaning it better. I considered it a real honor. He had all the tools and I had the desire.

I think I am glad I didn't know him when he was younger. Some of the stories he tells................ :lol:
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by William Three Coons » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:58 am

Whoa! I am new here but I know Cotton and his wife face to face, which causes me ta' wonder if i know any of you mugs face to face??? I might have atteneded a few Easterns and Original nor' Easterns and there was a time long ago I atteneded NMLRA Nor' Easterns, but poly tics happens.

I have a sterling spoon Cotton gave me which is a fancy riggin with the state of Michigan's seal on it.

Say hi to him for me, he calls me Billy, but might know better if you tell him King Willian Three Coons.
Image

Now I read all the posts in this thread.. Mostly I agree with Captchee, but he made a error under terms of tech as I see things, when he said a frizzen could be fixed by silver soldering a hacksaw blade to a frizzen, since that would soften the blade to annealed and or normalized which would render it soft.

Since hardeneing temps are far higher than silver soldering is, the solder would melt before you could re-quench to hard the blades again.

What I have seen as a fix from the old days was to hammer forge out a piece of hi carbon steel thinner and then after shaping it to fit closely to the frizzen, then drill and make ready for rivets. Then the part can be hardened again and riveted to the frizzen as a fix. This was done back then and is sstill done today.

There is no doubt Captchee has done one heck of a lot of home work, and it shows as what he has learned has taken him years to learn.

Another problem in Captchee's thinking is mostly we go by what was common. The off designs he mentions may have existed and did exist, but these were not common.

If you want to play Rev War and use a steam boar it is wrong.. Steam boats did exist, but were not common, or very good boats in the first place at tha time. None were used in that war.

Just because the Dutch had wooden shoes in Holland and maybe wooden shoed were used in Canada pre Rev War, doesn't make it right to use wooden shoes to portray anyone in the Rev War and or in the American Fur Trade.

To me this means no in line gun was typical of the times that these extra HUNTING SEASONS, are meaning to portray, and to me all thses plastics and inlines are just another way to cheat the law. The simple fact is that there was no such thing back then period, that there was no suck thing as plastic and there was no in line in common use, and certainly there was no rifle primers nor fake gun powder.

This industry is based on making a guy that runs a modern bolt action rifle comfortable with a modern bolt action, that just happens to not use a brass cat'ridge. To me it is cheating what the law was intended to be.

Scopes existed in the Rev War and these scopes were nearly as long as the rifle they were mounted on,but they were not anything like common, and they were not anything like what we know as scopes today.

I have a early 19th century telescope and it is nothing like modern glass period.

And so no plastic gun stock and in line will ever be considered Traditonal to me.

I understand the steels today are different, and that can't be helped, there is no more wrought iron made by anyone anymore. Hell you can hardly buy real hemp rope and or even wool any more, and many items of the times are plain just gone.

I have searched the entire eastern sea board for real hemp for a gun boat for over 5 years going into Canada, and finally came by what I was after a few years ago, as made in Romania. Please don't tell me it is common as long strand manillia because that isn't hemp.

And I don't want to hear any jokes about smoking it. If you want to know what real hemp is, start it as a topic somewhere.

The point is many items that were once common arn't any more and that there is nothing in common with the guns of yore' and these in lines.

I have no problem with in lines, other than if it is the experience of the old days you are seeking you won't get it with one of those guns, any more than if you re-load a Winchester 30-30 lever gun with black powder. The 30-30 was amoungst the first guns to NOT be designed for black powder, and only shares the terminolgy from a earlier time.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by gameslayer » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:10 pm

I am just going to say and leave it at that ,traditional is whatever Ron and Charlie say it is ,they have been doing it long enough to make the tradition what it is today ,probably longer than I have lived.LOL

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:22 pm

good post william well said .
as to the frizzen . hack saw blade will not need to be re tempered as the silver solder flows at a much lower temp then the annealing temp of the carbon steal in the blade
A proper frizzen is actually drawn to hardness . IE the back of the frizzen should be softer then its face .
If not and it gets to hard , the frizzen can actually snap .
Very few items today are not made from castings . This includes springs . As such they can be some what tricky to work with

As to what was common , again you are correct . We base what we do in re-enacting as to what was common .
However here is the rub .
What was common in some areas of this country is often uncommon in others .
Case in point French tulle made weapons in the south in American Indian hands . While ther is some possible reference to them , they are very hard to pin down . BUT at the same Time Tulle made rifles are not uncommon in the north .

Another issue that we apply that is in fact contradictory IMO is rear sights not being on smooth bores .
Of the available originals out there I would have to say that the rear sight issue runs about 50 /50
Even many trade guns show signs of carrying a rear sight at one time .

We also have to consider the venerable hawkens rifle . The hawkens name in gunsmithing goes back to the very beginning g of European occupation of this country . As such the vast majority of rifle built by that family , based soul on timeline would have to have been full stock eastern type rifles .

Also when we get into the rondy type events , we accept the St Lewis hawkens rifles , which hawkens didn’t start producing tel after the 1840 time line
Also do we have to not take into consideration that the highest production numbers that I have seen related to the hawkens production # is stated to be 300 or less . Many folks even say that’s probably more like 200 .
So if that’s the case the vast majority of rifles we consider hawkens rifles would have to most likely be made by makers like Derringer , Hennery or Leman .as their production numbers for the same time frame are 2 to 3 times those of the hawkens brothers .
Not to mention the eroupians were making ½ stock sporting rifles , with some of them surly making there way to this country well before the commonality of the short plains rifles .
Then comes in the Hall rifles who’s production # for 1812-1838 are in the 30 thousand range .Far exceeding the numbers of hawkens, Leman , derringer , and Hennery . so where did these rifles go ??
sure some of the contracts were for shipment to eroupe BUT we cannot assume that with those numbers , they were not also here . exspecialy since as our goverment also ordered them in numbers .

So what im getting at.. Or I should say trying to get at LOL . Is often times what we associate as common may not be as common as what we think ad what we associate as un common , may in fact be more common then we think .
The percussion system is one of these such areas for discussion and speculation . We know that by 1840 the cap lock was fairly common in the east . But how many were actually used in the western fur trade of that time ?? Frankly we have to assume many were here , if for no other reason then by the trade company inventories of caps being brought to the rendezvous.
BUT then doesn’t one have to wonder if this system was so wide spread by 1840 , why it was that in 1838 ,at the Alamo everything was flintlocks “”according to the Alamo historical society “.

I don’t know . I don’t claim to have the answers to all im learning just as everyone else .
As I always say others research may very because soon as you draw a line and say this is how it was , someone will come along to prove that what we think , may not be the case at all
Last edited by Captchee on Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by robert n leeper » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:28 pm

to me traditional is what my great grandfather used. cap and ball muzzle loading sidelock cap popping shoulder kicking mulestomping bonecrunching smokepole . ive stopped using the yuppy rounds, sabots, belts and fancy expensive market driven junk. admittedly i use a cva sidelock and ive used it for more than a rifle. i also use a special invention of mine that turns it into a shot shooting turkey gun, and im thinking of making a woodstock for it and my old 12 gauge bolt action
gun ..i also use an old recurve bow most of the time, given to me by my grandpa and i also have a wheely deely whick i use to shatter arrows with. if an arrow survives three shots with it, i put it in my quiver... most dont last one shot, even the
factory made alumimimimim and crapon arrows ive seen. they just dont hold up like wood. hmmm i might be in the mood to buy some woodies soon...keep that in mind . my new hunting knife is a hundred and fifty year old Corsan Denton
Burdekin & company knife left to me by my father a double edged razor sharp piece of traditional history. i pour my own lead, and use iron sight so im sort of traditional ... and i love green and brown plaid woolie lined shirts
Joseph had a coat of many colors, mine are green brown tan and gray
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Whitewolf » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:44 pm

William Three Coons-
You won't know this mug! He's quite a guy and his wife is wonderful! I copied your note and picture and printed it out to show them.
One stick, one string. What more does a guy need? Oh yeah, and something that makes LOTS of smoke when you pull the trigger!

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by William Three Coons » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:20 pm

Greywolfy, That picture was just after Cotton had preformed a real weddin' n' HE WAS LATE! Bein' the sort of fool I am, and knowin' both parties i had been in the act of making a fool of myself, and the Bride to her total dismay, and infront of her civilian non skinner family. I must admitt it is shear joy to be chasin them wimin's in my version of bear grease and paint. I did stand by idle after Cotton finally did appear and do the 'DEED'.

The woman in that pic is my Bride, another of the good ones. I spect Cotton will recognise her likeness, and perhaps smile a bit more warmly at her than he does with this po' chil'. :mrgreen:

........
Damn Captchee ya got away of hurtin a po' chil's ol head ya do.. So much ponderin..

I still got questions as you can't mean silver solder then because my hard solder flows about 1,400 or so and can flow at 1,600, well over 600', so I am guessing that you use a 50/50 lead tin then? Which melts somewhere just over 300'. I am not looking in any book, but I have such books if I must.

I have never lined a frizzen myself, but have used Casinitie several times to face a frizzen and am aware to heat sink off the front and the pan cover.

At voo I have repaired main springs for shooters who other wise had their last shot, forging with what ever tools I could beg from anyone wanting to help another shooter, where no store bought replacement spring could be had in time. Many times I have most of but not all of the tooling to pull these little stunts off at voo. For example I go light when I can, and so won't have any anvil, but a large axe, stuck hard in a heavy stump can be a small anvil. Other wise I might have antique pliers as tongs, and one form or another of hammers large enough to forge a spring longer, and files to fit the bearings of a new spring/re fit, and like you, knowing to heat sink away from the spring so it still stays a spring as best I can with what ever else I can get, usually a wet rag. It is too bad we are forced to use cast springs as i see it, but pretty much we are.

I am not that good to forge a spring out of flat stock, but I can dream..

All very good points as to what might have been common, very good and something I wouldn't have thought of. I don't mind being wrong, as that happens every day to me.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:09 pm

still got questions as you can't mean silver solder then because my hard solder flows about 1,400 or so and can flow at 1,600, well over 600', so I am guessing that you use a 50/50 lead tin then? Which melts somewhere just over 300'. I am not looking in any book, but I have such books if I must.
i think your thinking of the high temp silver solders ,
i can get silver solder that will flow as low a 275 and as high as i believe 1400.
the lowest is technically called tin soft i think ??? I would have to look
But if I recall its rated for around 4200 PSI
The heavies I use is 355 and if I recall ist flows at 1200 or there about
I also know some fellas that are using none acid core solders “ IMO plumbers solders “that they say work but I have not had the kahonies to try them yet .
But I can tell you used to solder a lot of frizzen faces and never had an issue with having to re temper after.

i also dont think anyone is wrong LOL just diffrent in point of view LOL

as to springs from flat stock . ill tell you what i do . get you some blue salt .
just bring it up to temp tel it turn liquid . dip you spring in it and watch the color change and bobs you uncle ;)

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:24 pm

GOD!!! i dont know why i couldnt think of the right name for doing the fizzen that way , its calle Half soling :lol:
just poped into my head . man its hell getting old

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by William Three Coons » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:16 pm

Captchee, obviously you haven't met my wife and as I said i can be WRONG every day! Trust me on this one! :mrgreen:

Um, I make Trade Silver and when any soldering takes place you can bet I first use jewelery quailty hard hi temp solder the first time anything gets soldered. Anything less is not quality work IMO.

Other than theses solder the main 4 for silver jewelry I don't use much of any other solders.. I did use a lead free solder last winter that might have been a low temp solder on a big pan made to boil down maple sap, but it was welded first and I didn't trust the welds to be totally pin hole free, although I couldn't see any pin holes.

I wonder... Power hack saws tend to get hot, and so then maybe they are made of air hardening steel??? i don't know and don't wotk with that type of blade often.. maybe they are something like A-6 tool steel and so you can heat them to 600 and they like it. Maybe you can just make them really red hot and it will like it better? Just the steel not on a frizzen..

The way i was thinking was if steel softens at 600 to Spring, that any solder over 600 to flow was going to remove the hard needed to cut steel and flash as sparks see?

I am 57, so right up there with the, ah um hmm oh just fer git it! :mrgreen:

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:45 pm

nomaly i trmper my springs at right around 570 " thow thats not exsact and only judging from the color . but what i personaly think is happening is the blade is naruraly drawing from the solder temp .
what i first do is tin the frizzen and the blade .
then i lay the blade against the face to be sold and clamp it with a small C clamp .
i then apply the tourch lell the solfer joint closes .
i then quench it in oil . then start filing to shape . and thats it ?
so maybe whats happening is that the plate is in a since being re tempered in the joining . I dont know frankly i never really tought about it all i know is it works

you know what i do remeber clearly though . Do you remember what was call Nucular frizzens LMAO
i think Dixie used to sell them . they had alittle mushroom floud on the package .
a fella the other day was telling me that these were actual depleted uranium :o . dont know if thats true or not but i do remeber that those things threw sparks like crazy

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by William Three Coons » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:07 pm

LOL I am not too sure, but I do recall frizzens called moon metal, which shot white blue bright sparks all the way to the damp grass and they still sparked exploding like carbon steel does off a wheel, right in the grass.

My impressions were what ever it was, it wasn't legal so far as a shoot is concerned.

I never knew what the metal was for sure, but i had the idea it was magnesium..

I saw a pair of matched Murdock all steel Scottish pistols that also had that effect and nearly bought them. If I had which I didn't, I would only have used them to answer my door :twisted:

I hope one day to have such a pair of pistols, but that will take a very special day about now.

Tempering: I have only heard of a method using melted lead to get a spring full hard to be a spring. I myself have never tried it and use oxy acetaleen torchs and some paitence reading the color, which for me is about peacock blue. Of course in bright light.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by pandus venator » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:01 pm

I built my own flint lock. I liked the Siler lock so I used it. I put a nice 1/66 twist barrel on it with a full stock. I hunt with a trad bow exclusively these days as in colorado you do one or the other. Archery is my first love but I do love the feel of a good flinter. Nothing better.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Hawg » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:32 pm

To me inlines are an abomination, a scourge upon the Earth. As are synthetic stocks and sabots. As for Mississippi primitive weapons season(and that's what it's called)practically anything goes. Any breech loading cartridge rifle with an external hammer .35 caliber and above and of a design before 1890 is acceptable. Cartridges can be loaded with bp or smokeless powder. Scopes of any magnification are permitted. This includes cartridges like the .35 Whelen, .450 Marlin and 45-70. The H&R Handi Rifle qualifies as a primitive weapon under these laws. The only good thing about it is now you can't hardly give an inline away in the state of MS. Nobody wants one now.
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