what is traditonal

Traditional Muzzleloaders, Flintlocks, Pistols, front stuffer kits, etc.
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Roger Norris » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:03 pm

Lefty, I often shoot carbon arrows out of my longbow, so to address your comment to me, I would say that it is the ignition system and style of the rifle for me, not the projectile.

I have only killed one deer with a flintlock, but have shot it for 4 years, and I'm familiar with what it will do at hunting ranges. I have also experimented quite a bit with modern shotgun "slug guns" for deer, as you cannot use a modern rifle in southern Michigan. I can tell you for sure, absolutely, that a cheap "starter kit" scoped modern inline beats the heck out of any slug gun for deer killing ability at any distance. With the advent of 'pellets" and 209 primers, the only resemblence an in-line has to a traditional muzzloader is that you assemble the load and ram rod the bullet.

All of that said, I don't care what you use. I suppose if I paid attention to record books, I would debate that Jim Shockey's "muzzloader" records are a bit of a joke, but I really don't care. Do whats legal, do whats right for you.
"Youv'e come far Pilgrim"......."Feels like far".....

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by cayugad » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:35 pm

The whole idea of what makes something traditional and something else not, is a very hard question to me. Although we need to be careful about putting timelines on things because there were actually inline rifles long before Tony Knight made his first MK-85. They just never caught on. There are early designs and models but again, they were not common. One could even argue that an underhammer is technically an inline as the flame goes directly to the powder charge instead of through a drum or bolster (as they were explained to me.. I never shot one). So what makes something traditional is not the type of weapon we shoot or what we shoot in it. To me traditional is the manner in which I hunt.

Now if you are talking primitive VS inlines, of course there are no arguements. But consider the fact, both the inline and the primitive model rifles all have to be loaded through the muzzle. They all have to have a powder dump, maybe a bore button or some hornet nest, maybe a little corn meal, or a cloth patch, or maybe a sabot. Its all a matter of how you load it and what you load it with.

So if a round ball makes the rifle traditional or primitive, does my Knight Wolverine LK-II shooting a .490 roundball make it primitive? After all the knight has a #11 ignition. And with a roundball I can small game hunt. I could deer hunt with the load, but would rather shoot a sabot out of it for that. I guess that's why when someone wants to label equipment or accessories, I kind of baulk.

Inlines are not really more accurate them a primitive style rifle. I know too many people that shoot primitive style flintlocks or cap locks to ever say an inline is more accurate. Wisconsin for instance does not allow magnification scopes during their muzzle loader season. So that means my most accurate muzzle loader is my .58 caliber 1-70 twist Green Mountain barrel. Now during modern season we can use scopes with magnification. So there, my Thompson Center Black Diamond XR with 150 grains of powder and a 250 grain shockwave is my most accurate. So I am not talking rifle, I am talking optics.

Like I said, there are many opinions on what makes one rifle "more traditional" then another. But I just hunt with what I want, and support the person that hunts with a different style rifle.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Powtomack Flinter » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:02 pm

I guess the forum owner needs to identify his purposes of this forum and what is deemed traditional and what is modern. Hunting itself is traditional regardless of the weapon used, so using that model anything can be discussed here. However, if the purpose is to discuss hunting using traditional or primitive style weapons, then why in the world are in-lines even being discussed here.

I personally believe that the Civil War was the beginning of the modern gun era. It was during this time that the breech loading rifle was improved upon, also the machine gun was invented during this time period. So I view a muzzleloading matchlock, flintlock, percussion styles of ignition to be the "traditional" or "primitive" weapons.

Breechloaders are the beginning of the modern rifle and view them as modern and not traditional or primitive.

The first reliable telescopic sight was invented in the 1880's, so I view telescopic sights as being in the modern rifle era. so any rifle with a telescopic sight in my mind is a modern era rifle. Put a scope on a flintlock and yes you are modernizing it to a point.

The modern day in-line as we know it is an attempt in my mind to allow Modern Rifle Shooters to extend their season with a modern rifle. Yes it is a front stuffer, but that is the only comparison between a flintlock and an in-line. I view them as front stuffing modern rifles. Plastic Stocks, Blue Steel, Telescopic Sights, Pelletized Powders and on and on are the sporting industries attempts to allow rifle hunters the same conveniences of rifle hunting, but doing it in the muzzleloading season. Yes its single shot and you do have to load it from the front and use a ramrod, but they are completely different and distinct from flintlocks and percussion rifles. They are two different types of weapons.

I hunt with a custom Flintlock and my two hunting buddies hunt with a percussion hawken style and the other an in-line. We each choose to hunt in our own preferred style of weapon choice, but to call a modern day inline a traditional rifle is wrong in my eyes.

I do not feel that I am a better hunter than those who use in-lines, but I do believe a flintlock takes more practice to master the rifle and thus the typical flintlock hunter spends more time in the field shooting and practicing than the typical in-line shooter.

In the gun world there are collectors, shooters, hunters and shooter-hunters. Collectors collect and don't really shoot, the shooters are target shooters only and don't really hunt, hunters who hunt a few times a year and then puts the rifles in the safe til next hunting season, they don't shoot for the fun of it just for hunting purposes, and shooter-hunters. This last group are those who hunt but take their rifles out during the year and shoot them and get familiar with them. I would venture to say the majority of flintlock hunters are in this category and the majority of people who use in-lines are in the hunter category.

I enoy spending an afternoon in the winter, spring, summer, fall just going out and shooting my flintlock and getting familiar with it. THese are just my random thoughts and MHO's

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:17 pm

Powtomack Flinter
good post but i would add a couple things here .
the traditional inline ignitions did exist and in cases like the hall rifles were produced in numbers far exceeding rifles that we commonly accept . If we look at hawkens for example its predominantly accepted that they could never have produced more then 300 rifles a year , tops . Yet still with relatively few actual rifles out there , we accept that rifle as traditional
Yet at the same time Hall produced near 30 thousand prior to 1840 . about 1 /2 of those breech loaders .
under hammers. yep they are there to as the government of the republic of Texas ordered a large amount from what I have read in their history .
Now what do these have in common with modern inline rifles ?
Basically nothing as most are based around a modern cartridge design , not a original muzzleloading design dated to a time when muzzleloading rifles were the norm , everywhere .
As to breech loaders we have to look at many , many accepted and used designs
But the most common would again be the Hall and Ferguson rifles
The Ferguson rifle used in the revolutionary war and was also a breech loader
The first model Hall was not a breech loader but a muzzleloader 1811 ish .
It was then changed to a breech loader and is still the only known rifle to be converter from muzzleloading to cartridge and back to muzzleloading in a time of war . that war would be the American civil war .

The advent of the percussion cap IMO was the beginning of both heavy numbers of breech loaders and the cartridge rifles . Depending on whos history you want to follow that date is 1810-1821
1821 is the approximate date for here in the Americas .

Now does this mean that cartridges did not exist prior ? Nope because they did and were used by militaries some 100 years earlier then that date . Infact the shotgun shell that we use today has change very little to those originals available in the late 1830’s early 1840’s
The point is the advent of the percussion cap accelerated all these designs well before the civil war

So what is a traditional muzzleloader . well here is my thoughts on it
Is basically any design or faithful design that reproduces an original ignition system used strictly for muzzleloading application . Now we can break this down and exclude modern synthetic stock s. but if we do that then don’t we have to realize that modern steels have also replaced Iron barrels on even clearly traditional flintlocks .
So for me the stock doesn’t mater . Neither does the barrel material ..
This is why some , “again some” of the modern designs still fit traditional definitions .
Take Doc whites system . This is ,but for a safety , the very same ignition system design used by Pauly and Perdy in the 1820-30 time frame . which by the way is a modification for use of the percussion cap , of a very old inline Flintlock design dating back to 1710 which also used a coil spring over a leaf spring .

So why did these types come about . Well basically IMO for the same reason the flintlock evolved from the snap hence . There are definite benefits to the system of that there is no doubt . Probably the very reason why so many of the TRUE master gunsmiths worked on the designs .
Even Manton built SXS that fired directly inline with the ignition but using a hammer to strike a cap .
And in fact is almost identical to the rabbit eared , cartridge ,breechloaders of the late 19th and early 20 century

But today even doc whites weapons have fallen from favor being replaced with ignitions that are directly and in some cases exact systems used for modern center fire cartridges . This is why in many cases such as with the Savage and Knight rifles . That these companies were required to make modifications before even being accepted by the feds under regulations concerning what is and is not a muzzleloading rifle . Mind you , even though the rifle could only be loaded from the muzzle . Which by the way isn’t exactly true but that’s a topic for another day .
So if IMO a inline has a ignition that’s of an design or a faithful reproduction of a design that was originally used during the Muzzleloading rifle era , its traditional
If it’s a ignition designed for cartridge use and , not traditional for muzzleloaders
IE these are muzzleloading rifles of which every design out there to include today’s cartridge designs are capable of being loaded from the muzzle
Its really a stick wicket but its not hard and in fact pretty simple and I think most folks fully understand what is traditional and what is not . But that’s just my opinion

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Lance Coleman » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:04 pm

Been doing a bit of reading here. I can now plainly see traditional hunters are traditional hunters regardless of what the weapon is. There's longbow and recurve shooters who turn their noses up at compounders and crossbows and there's flint lock and percussion shooters that turn their noses up at inline shooters.


I guess everyone has their own niche and just like everything else in life everyones niche has those that tend to peer down upon the others.

For those here that know me from traditional BOWHUNTING websites, know I been around for a lil while....... this aint my first website rodeo .....and I been shooting stix long enough to accumilate quite a long list of dead animals with them... and not meaning to toot a horn because I have no horn to toot. Just trying to make the point this ol boy aint just fall off the turnip truck.

My entire point is we all have to start somewhere. The majority of todays traditional bowhunters are not Ron LaClairs who started off with longbows..(even though many of us my strive to be that accomplished one day)... There compounders who saught a higher challenge. And although many of todays flinters and cap lock shooters may have gotten in to it from re in actments or actually started off with these...... I'll wager the majority also started off centerfire and now seek the higher hands on challenge.

I myself have goitten the traditional muzzle loading bug pretty bad here as of late. But I will be the first to admit I am a total rookie at muzzle loaders. I killed my first ever whitetail with a muzzel loader my uncle handed me and loaded for me.... other than it I've only killed three other deer and a couple hogs and those were with modern inlines...... So although most of my life is spent in the woods hunting with some form of weapon, this new passion is just that.. very new to me.

What's not new is smart remarks, turned up noses and elitist attitudes. I've learned to turn them completely off and ignore them. Regardless of the knowledge the person has to offer...... if the delivery is salty I look for someone with a differnt delivery. I've turned WAY more compound shooters in to recurve shooters by sharing the joy and being encouraging than I ever have by being a butthead and acting like my way is the real or only way and talking down the other ways.

Not pointing fingers, not meaning to be rude.... just giving my 2 cents. You wish to see others enjoy what you so truly enjoy?? Show them the joy, not rudeness and looking down on their current way....... Because maybe...... just maybe........ YOUR current way may be what they're trying to get to.


CAPTCHEE,

Great post man... real great post. I apreciate it.
It's not what you do............ It's how you do it.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:26 am

reasonable post lance .
my only comment would be that myself , i dont look down on the modern folks .
i do feel they dont belong in a muzzleloading season or under traditional definitions . but i fully suport their right to use what they want . when hunting that should be in a time fram that will provide the fullest capabilities of their system .

really i have alot more to say but , had better not LOL :lol:

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Lance Coleman » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:58 pm

I think you misread me Cap. I was being as serious and honest as I could when I refferred to your post.

You have answered every stupid question I have thrown at you, been beyond polite and more than informative and just an all out nice guy giving me a great deal of excellent advice.

I believe it's on the forum home page over traditional firearms where the site admin has typed inline or flintlock all are welcome.... he's not trying to define inlines as traditional..... he's merely letting folks know they are also welcome....... And there's been several post where a few members have flat out turned their noses up at any mention of inline.

My whole point is those mentions of inlines were NOT MEANT to be placed there to get slapped at or bashed.... And thatsa good way to turn a feller that has an intrest in getting deeper in to muzzle loading in a differnt direction. There's precious few out there that are willing to have their methods deemed "unworthy" and them still hang around to be shown a new way.

Like I said I'm not gonna point no fingers. but iffens I WAS going to?? they most definately would NOT be pointed at you cap. I honestyly appreciate not only the advice you've given me. But also the manner in which you carry yourself in this little cyber campfire. I been watching you post for about a week or so now and you already got my respect.

Lance
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:32 pm

understood Lance and i wasnt trying to poke at you or this forum .
what i was actually getting at was the bigger picture .
my father was one of the IDF&G Co 's that actually lobbied for a separate season here in this state .
i actually supported back in 1992 the acceptance of modern muzzleloading weapons into that season under a strict guideline .

but to be honest with you , the last 17 years , i have had to re think my position on them .
its not the folks who follow the rules and accept them , its those who constantly want more .
we have actually here come to the point that we are losing opportunity . the hunts are getting fewer and fewer each year . those that are holding on are becoming draws IE there is no benefit to the use of the modern designs because you dont get more time to hunt , you actually get less time because we are confined to a given area and a short time . add to that the fact that you are lucky enough to draw one of those areas , you can not hunt in any other or any other season .

the point is that now instead of having an open by a tag and hunt situation its fast becoming a luck of the draw .
the reason for that is with all the technologies being aloud , the general hunting public no longer greatly support a separate season , they see no reason for that .
frankly im of the same opinion . if we are going to allow all the wiz bang stuff , then let everyone have a crack at it .

myself through the years , i can only recall 2 times i actually participated in a "muzzleloader hunt "
99% of my muzzleloader hunting , which is the only hunting i do , is in the general any weapon season . thats where the real opportunity is . i have to date had no problem filling a tag right along side of the center fire guys .

as to this site ? myself i have no problem with modern folks being here as long as they are not assumed or classified as a traditional weapon . now if they want to use a traditional inline ignition haaaa!!!!! bring them on they fit .
i see the same issues now with bow hunters as more and more cross bows are being aloud into archery season . i truly believe that in the end the base reason for archery hunting will dye but i think in an even greater turmoil them muzzleloading .
to be honest i look at it mush the same way as a women forcing herself into a mans only club.
Come hell or high water she is going to get in even though she knows she doesn’t fit , isn’t welcome . But really that’s not the point is it , the real point is she wants in . so in the end , the club dies or they simply close up shop to keep her out because there simply is no need for a mans only club if women are aloud in .
LMAO now I don’t need anyone saying im calling modern shooters women LOL im not . Its just a comparison of action nothing more

but anyway no harm no foul , that’s just my opinion and i have no problems with those who disagree or have one that differs .
be safe lance , no worries

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Lance Coleman » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:25 pm

up!! They didn't shove Xbows down our throat. They colored it with invisible ink and slipped her right passed us!We hunters actually got the news of the vote the day BEFORE it hit the floor. Needless to say it passed with flying colors. See Insurance companies tired of paying out deer vs car accidents around here are the major push behind our generous (as in kill em all) tags and lengthy seasons.

At first the pro shops guys were ecstatic! What with all the Xbow sales they couldn't keep them in stock. What they weren't prepared for was their lack of knowledge as well as hunters lack of knowledge. See most lower priced Xbows aint meant for all that shootin. and they aint exactly as simple a point and shoot as they thought they'd be. So They did a whole bunch of that cocking and shooting of those tiny, short ultra heavy limbs......... on weapons NOT designed for repeated shot after shot abuse...... Next thing ya know proshops were FULL of broke crossbows needing repairs and limbs on back order and the pawn shops filling up as well.

But even with that the highest record wounding survey ever in the history of this state took place the inogural year of the introduction of the Xbow into our archery season. But of course nobody post that type info real loud or hard...... entirely too much money behind the Xbow push.

Like you *I* decide what I hunt with NOT the season. I mean I use a weapon legal for that season but I use what I feel like using. For the past two years I've killed all my archery deer during general firearms season. I spent the last three weeks of general firearms carrying my muzzle loader. Yea it's an inline. But I'm working hard on fixin that ;)

I wonder if alot of you guys problems is the fact that yall have so many differnt big game critters to chase?? bear elk muleys whitetails etc?? see here it's deer or bear. thats all we have thats classed as big game.
It's not what you do............ It's how you do it.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Longhunter » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:18 am

I believe it's on the forum home page over traditional firearms where the site admin has typed inline or flintlock all are welcome.... he's not trying to define inlines as traditional..... he's merely letting folks know they are also welcome..
I can't find where it says that...am I not looking in the right place? :?

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by TradRag » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:29 am

Lance Coleman wrote:My whole point is those mentions of inlines were NOT MEANT to be placed there to get slapped at or bashed.... And thatsa good way to turn a feller that has an intrest in getting deeper in to muzzle loading in a differnt direction. There's precious few out there that are willing to have their methods deemed "unworthy" and them still hang around to be shown a new way.
Lance
By no means do we need to run anyone off. Let's get them here and turn 'em :mrgreen: Same sort of thing in Archery (i was one of those many years ago), we have a few bow shooters with training wheels. We'll turn them too. I appreciate all the respect being displayed among us all.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by allanburden » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:31 am

Dang Lance, I didn't know you GA boys got nailed with the Xbow wammy this season as well. The first I heard of it here in SC was when I got my 2008 regulations magazine and it had a resolution printed in it stating that crossbows could be used during archery season by all. Previously one had to prove a disablity that prevented one from drawing a bow to use a Xbow. As for what is traditional, I say that traditional is defined by the individual. For me, as a muzzleloading newbie, traditional is a percussion (in a classic style...I'm still trying to figure out modern from past styles) or obviously a flinter. But just as my view of traditional archery has changed from using a metal riser Hoyt with carbon arrows to a '68 Bear K-Mag and making my own arrows, my definition will adapt with me as time marches on and my desires change as for how the hunt will take place.

Great posts to both Lance and Captchee. I don't say much on here because I feel it's best to shut up and listen when learning unless one has a question. From what I've seen so far, Lance, you have asked most every question I have and answered a few on another topic. And Captchee, I stand in awe to your skills and knowledge and look forward to reading every post you have started or graced with your presence.

Inlines, in my opinion are modern rifles. Nothing more, nothing less. However, it is also a matter of personal preference and if a person is ethical and does not trash up the land I have no problem with what anyone uses. A bozo using a flinter or selfbow running around dropping trash and being unsafe is much worse than sharing the woods with a respectful "modern" hunter.
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:51 am

seems i have made at least 1 of you upset . I got a PM from a person saying that inlines are not traditional and there is no such thing as a tradional inline .
so instead of answering that in PM i thought i would try to answer it here .
Now this is just my opinion. Others research may very so please keep that in mind
Unfortunately in the last 20+ years the modern rifles have been defined as Inlines
IMO this is based mostly on looks and ignition .
But we have to remember Inline ignitions did not always look like they do today .
They look just as any other traditional weapon looked like .
So why did they not catch on . Well IMO because they had some very serious short comings that with modern technologies and the invent of the center fire systems negated those issues .
The system itself was also very adaptable to the cartridge and as that evolution really started taking hold in the early part of the 19th century the muzzleloading inline ignition seems to branch directly into the development of that area .
Just about all the folks we today consider historic gunsmith masters all worked or manufactured some type of inline ignition . Nock , Manton , Pauly , Perdy all marketed inline ignitions of some sort
But simply put , they did not readly catch on and were not built in considerable numbers , tell The Hall rifles were built under contract very early in the 19th century and then later with large numbers being built under contracts .

So today we have the modern muzzleloading rifles , we all recognize . Most are based around a R700 frame. Some like those Doc white used to produce still looked like a 700 but the ignition was very similar to the design used by Pauly in the 1830 time frame. But we have came so far from that , you can now find
Muzzleloadering rifles that Use an AR15 frame as well as the R700 , Winchester and other bolt action designs as well as break open cartridge shot gun conversions .
But these have no resemblance to traditional inline systems Nor do they carry the issues or complications of those systems .
Very much like putting a mustang 2 suspension, full blown 327 Chevy , vet rear end , power steering anti lock breaks and such under a 1927 ford model T body . Then demanding allowance into an restored antique car show instead of one that allows customs, mods ,or street rods . then being offended becouse the folks who have faithful restored or tried to faithfuly reproduce that same T dont want you around or particapating in their events

Here are some examples of very early 18th century and up traditional inline ignitions
These are what im speaking of when I say Traditional inlines

this SXS dates to 1710 . notice it is a plunger system
Image

another rifle from the mid 18th century . the cocking on this one is a key type mech . something loke a wheel lock in application
Image

early diagram of what later possably was used by hall and their rifles . is capable of both breech and muzzleloading
Image

Nocks design that was applied to alot of his pistol models
Image

another very old inline ignition used for a revolving multi shot military use
Image

my point is that these all were designs specificly for muzzleloading application . in some cases both breech loading and muzzleloading .
these IMO are exsamples of traditional inline ignitions . these are what im talking about when i say traditional inlines ;)

Edit here for clerification , the Lewis gun on the bottom is not a muzzleloader per say its actualy an early cartradge design
Last edited by Captchee on Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by allanburden » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:33 am

Wow, I'd never heard of nor saw anything like that before. Thanks Captchee.
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:44 pm

i had one more photo that i had uploaded but was running out of time and had to be on the road .
this is actualy a diagram that was provided by request from the tower of london a few years back .
now notice this shows the internal workings of the SXS i showed above with a modification to the cocking lever which has been replace with a cocking trigger .
also not that this uses a coil spring to fire the lock , AHHHUUUUU i said coil spring
Image

So what would be some of the possible difficulties of this ignition system
Again this is just my opinion and others research may differ .

1) the mechanics are complicated and easily damaged .
2) consistency of ignition would have greatly suffered. For those of us here that shoot flintlocks , imagine the difficulty of freshening the flint

For you modern shooters imagine if you will the issues with fouling of the lock system itself
3) sight picture . When you fire these , the frizzen pops up directly inline with where your sights are . Thus no ability to hold the sights on target through ignition .
4) comfort of shooter .. Those of you who have found yourself standing on the vent side of a flintlock when it goes off know what happens even if your 5 or 6 ft away .
Now picture if you will , where and how close your face would be with these and where the vent gasses are going to go .

some these issues were fixed with advancements in 1 area . The percussion cap . If you look closely at the 2nd picture I posted , you can see what looks like a nipple . Remember this rifle was basicly a plunger type ignition and just as easily converted to percussion as any side lock flintlock would have been . We can also see that the striking surface for the flint has possibly been removed as part of the conversion . Leaving only the lide or back of the frizzen itself ..

But while the invention of the percussion cap fixed the sight issue , it did not fix the blowback or fouling issues with the rifle thus I believe the maintenance to keep the system working , would have been very high .
Add to that the actual relative length of the percussion cap era was short lived as t it was also what the cartridge system was waiting for .
See that system was also building and being used even in flintlock designs . However it also was having problems .
The casings were hard and expensive to make and really out of the reach of possibility for all but the wealth however it was still being developed .
The percussion cap also solved some of its issues . But the cost of making casings was still there until about 1830 when extruding brass was figured out .
here is a scan for you of some early cartradge designs that span and where used right through te muzzleloading era .
this als includes a couple of the Pauly casings that were used in his rifle designs
Image

Note this was just about the time when percussion systems where really starting to take hold here in the US .
By extruding brass , casings could quickly and cheaply be made .
The technology for the rifle was already proven in the inline ignition design. Adapting that ignition to cartridge evolution with minor modifications , solved all its issues with blow back . It solved the sighting issues and cleaning issues all in one blow .
Thus the beginning of all the different ignition designs for cartridge.
Muzzleloaders though would hang on for another 50-80 years especially in military use but by the last couple decades of the 19century , they were also being replace in that area as well .
So basicly you have depending on what documentation you want to believe , the percussion cap coming about as early as 1810 and as late in this country as 1820 but by 1860-1870 those designs starting to be phased out and replaced by different cartridge systems like the pin fire , rim fire and such .
The evolution is IMO like the branches on a tree .
While a branch is still part of the over all tree , it can never be the trunk even if it grows back and touches the trunk . Maybe grows back into the trunk , its stall going to be a branch .
Some times , if its very lucky , it will break off . Stab itself into the ground . Then and only then will it become a trunk . But it also has become its own tree , no longer part of the original .

Anyway that’s my thoughts on the subject and hopfuly something for folks to think about over a cup of coffee .
again remeber these are my views , that doesnt make them right , wrong or the only view .
its nothing more then my oppenion
Be safe

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Lance Coleman
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Lance Coleman » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:23 pm

OMG! Cap where do you find this stuff! That is one cool lookin rifle!! What is that in the first pic burl walnut??

Ron,

He Changed it (gasp) admit it Brian you changed the type! Or maybe it was on a different sub forum?

ALLEN,

I ask them questions because I SHOOT AN INLINE. And I SHOOT AN INLINE ONLY because I haven't managed, traded, figured out just what type or brand or DIY traditional muzzle loader I want yet. And I want to bad!! I have my grandfathers when I managed to get down there and pic it up but thats 11 hours away.... But I don't mention it to get it beat up on or viewed as "offtopic...." Heck man If I wanted to get beat up on I could just go tell the wife she looks like she's gained wieght (you haven't honey!! You look great!) I just don't want to see the same thing here as I've saw elsewhere. One of the main reasons I stopped going to tournaments was I hated getting sneered at and stereo typed by compounders because some "tradguy" was lookin down his nose at the wheel boys like he was better. And now i'm lumped in to that group as well because there's no wheels on the ends of my limbs.

And I'll be the first to admit. Call it shooting experience, or call it what you will. But at 100yds I can hand anyone my custom built 270 and I can stay within 1" of them with my inline muzzle loader. So yes I do know how simple they are and how accurate they can be. And as a traditional bowhunter I can also see the irony in it as well as the age old debate.

I've also watched first hand Byron ferguson consistanlty make shots compounders can't make and watched a Blairsville boy named Billy Harkins shoot a flint lock he made better than 95% of the hunters I know can shoot iron sighted centerfires. So I know what this "ol stuff" is capable of as well.

Man this site has the potential to be awesome. And also somewhere I can learn stuff!! I've Watched Ron LaClair sneek a flintlock mention or toma hawk thread in here or there through cyber world for years now. It's cool to finally be on a site with Ron where he can just start talking about it to a crowd that is genuinely intrested and wanting to hear.
Last edited by Lance Coleman on Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's not what you do............ It's how you do it.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Taureau noir » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:30 pm

For me traditionnal ml is either a Sidelock or a flint.Never shot a flint but owned a Tradition Hawken woodsman for over 8 years.and had Knight Disc Elite the last four years but shot with patch and ball in .50cal.With patch and ball in the Elite, with 80gr. of triple 7 shot a 7 pointer at 85 yards dropped in his track.
I'm looking to buy a new Tradition Hawken.
Have a good night
Taureau noir

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:24 pm

Ron,

He Changed it (gasp) admit it Brian you changed the type! Or maybe it was on a different sub forum?

ALLEN,
im sorry ? i have changed nothing i have posted these photos for others over on the TMA forum as well as hunt a America a long time ago

As to where I got the info. Well bocks , more books and requesting info from museums .
I also send requests to personally study examples , when ever they will let me , which surprisingly isn’t that hard as long as you ask , set up a date and show up with the material needed . IE clean white cotton gloves , dressed nicely and with a not pad for taking notes .

As I said , also books , I collect old firearms books to include
Shumway and Lindsey as well as pope and Hanson have through the years written volumes . Not only on specific weapons like the trade guns but also on plains rifles , French , English , German . I also watch at yard sales and flea markets for gun books .
The information is aout there many times just for the asking
Last edited by Captchee on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:26 pm

ohh sorry i forgot , the SXS what is it . no its not walnut . believe it or not it is all inlayed tortus shell that gives that look

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Lance Coleman
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Lance Coleman » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:42 pm

Cap,

No no. "tradrags" real name is Bryan. I meant he changed the info under the forum name not you. And he diddit too!! He just fessed up to me :P

Inlayed toroise shell.... Now that is wild. I bet that rifle can't be bought for under 5 grande can it?

Is your name Brian as well??
It's not what you do............ It's how you do it.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by TradRag » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:11 pm

Lance Coleman wrote:Cap,

No no. "tradrags" real name is Bryan. I meant he changed the info under the forum name not you. And he diddit too!! He just fessed up to me :P

Inlayed toroise shell.... Now that is wild. I bet that rifle can't be bought for under 5 grande can it?

Is your name Brian as well??
I did change the info.. Lance was not seeing things. Funny thing those EDITs.. they can flat trick a guy. ;) I hope that there has been no confusion. My apologies if so.
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:52 pm

I bet that rifle can't be bought for under 5 grande can it?
my bet considering the royalty it was made for probably alot more then that sir

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by allanburden » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:38 am

ALLEN,

I ask them questions because I SHOOT AN INLINE. And I SHOOT AN INLINE ONLY because I haven't managed, traded, figured out just what type or brand or DIY traditional muzzle loader I want yet. And I want to bad!! I have my grandfathers when I managed to get down there and pic it up but thats 11 hours away.... But I don't mention it to get it beat up on or viewed as "offtopic...." Heck man If I wanted to get beat up on I could just go tell the wife she looks like she's gained wieght (you haven't honey!! You look great!) I just don't want to see the same thing here as I've saw elsewhere. One of the main reasons I stopped going to tournaments was I hated getting sneered at and stereo typed by compounders because some "tradguy" was lookin down his nose at the wheel boys like he was better. And now i'm lumped in to that group as well because there's no wheels on the ends of my limbs
Well, I for one appreciate you asking all the questions. It makes it easier for me in that I don't have to think of it myself :mrgreen: ! Amen on that special way to get beaten up on...though I don't personally recommend it myself. I also understand what you are saying about the stereotyping and to put it bluntly it sucks. What's the old saying..."why can't we agree to disagree." Personal opinion is just that, nothing more. Only some folks defend there own personal opinion as if it were the way things were intended and everyone else must be the same way or they are wrong! And you are correct about the potential of this site as well. I think it will do very well.

I stand by my earlier post. Traditional is defined by the individual and while one does not have to like another's view, one does not have to burn said individual on the stake.
Allan Burden

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Longhunter » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:02 am

I stand by my earlier post. Traditional is defined by the individual
Sorry but I disagree. When a person hunts with a compound bow and an inline ML and defines himself "Traditional" ....he's not. Traditional is determined by the equipment used....not the individuals opinion..... Now can we "agree to disagree"?.... :lol:

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by gameslayer » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:59 pm

This is how I see it I think to the majority of people Traditional for the 1700s was a flintlock or a self bow and before the flintlock was wheel lock or match locks. Traditional for the 1800s is a percussion and self bows . traditional for the 1900s is a laminated bow and compound bows and centerfires . traditional for the modern inline movement is about 1985- present day.

There were a few advanced inlines and laminated horn bows early on but not too many.


I admire the flintlock and selfbow era the most.

I want to sample all of the weapons I can I like to broaden my horizons ,from slings ,knives atlatls,blowguns,bows to guns.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by gameslayer » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:15 pm

I think it would be easier if anyone is wanting to divide and only allow one or two eras in the group to just ,make the division based on which eras are included and which ones are tabu and not included in the group .simple as falling off a log backwards .jmo.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by allanburden » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:53 pm

Sorry but I disagree. When a person hunts with a compound bow and an inline ML and defines himself "Traditional" ....he's not. Traditional is determined by the equipment used....not the individuals opinion..... Now can we "agree to disagree"?....
Of course we can...there's no limit to the amount of people I can disagree with :roll: :mrgreen: :lol: . LOL
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:36 pm

For center fire . Traditional would be rim fire or pin fire and single shot only and I would think still specify Black powder .. Though most certainly center fire loaded with BP .
But for some I have talked with , traditional is not using a scope ,,,

For archers , traditional would still have to be recurves and long bows and such WITH rests , then you have primitive bows , no rests , no plastic knocks no modern strings no carbon or aluminum shafts fletching of feathers only . Broad heads of trade points or obsidian

For muzzleloading , traditional would still fall as basically the side lock percussion and flint as these were the two systems most widely available to all levels of wealth both in rifle and smooth bore with smooth bore being more prevalent in the mid to early 18th century
Prior would be the match lock , snap hence , wheel locks and such . But remember these were not available to the masses . Both would use RB there is some documentation for conical type bullets but these don’t start appearing at the earlies in use tell the late 18th century . Basically seeing limited use in the revolutionary war . BUT also the debate is still out as to if these can be classified as a true conical

Generally though to the average public traditional is muzzleloading and archery . However when you ask even a child what a muzzleloader looks like , and show them a photo , they will pick the truly traditional rifle most every time, IE a long rifle or plains rifle/ Trade rifle

Same with archery , show the same child a American Indian bow next to a modern compound or modern cross bow what do you think they will pick as defining the definition .
The thing is that for some of us American Indian people , the blow gun holds as much if not more tradition then the bow does . But people don’t know that and it only as far as I know found in the east in this country “ country being whats not the US .
Where the real rub comes in is only when folks want to be defined as something they are not but cant understand why . Thus they want to define traditional as rocks and sticks
But that’s just my take on it

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by gameslayer » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:00 pm

I just put this here because I canceled my post

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Lance Coleman » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:24 pm

I have a question..

Do you guys see the advncement of traditional in YOUR areas??

What I mean is it seems as each day goes by more and more advanced gear is deemed primitive.... or traditional. Atleast here it does. I mean here we have an archery season, and a primitive season. Basically archery in this state is now classified as pretty much anything that will fling an arrow or bolt. compound, drawlock, Xbow, longbow selfbow recurve..... and primitive is deemed anything this side of CENTERFIRE. But I also heard from my folks that in Ms. and La. you can now use certain 444 and 45/70 govt. rifles so long as their patent on the design predates a specific time. See in La and Ms. I don't think it's called muzzle loader or primitve firearms season. I actually think it's called "black powder" season.

But does anyone else notice this?? That the more advanced things get, the more "yesterdays" advancements are now being pushed to be the "classics" or primitive, or traditional??

I mean 30-40 years ago it wasn't called traditional bowhunting to be hunting with a recurve now was it?? Makes you wonder what they'll call the old round wheel 2 cammed compound in another 20 yrs huh?
It's not what you do............ It's how you do it.

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