what is traditonal

Traditional Muzzleloaders, Flintlocks, Pistols, front stuffer kits, etc.
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what is traditonal

Post by jaxtix » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:40 am

Now I ain't one to stir up a controversy, but I think that "Traditional" means exactly that. I do not own a blackpowder rifle but I intend to. But for me when I buy/build it I want a "Muzzle Loader". Probably flintlock. The In Line thing is just not truly "Traditional" as far as I am concerned. But that's me. I don't have a problem with those that choose them but you see so much mock disdain for the "other guys" gear between traditional and compound. It is a personal choice. I gave up the wheels because I do not need assisted archery. I love tuly traditional things and I wish we were all sitting around the same campfire discussing this rather than doing it by computer. I suppose one has to make exceptions in the communications area because we'll never all be gathered at one campfire. Any way I digress. Have a super nice day and God Bless ALL. jaxtix :D
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by TradRag » Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:17 pm

jaxtix wrote:The In Line thing is just not truly "Traditional" as far as I am concerned. But that's me. I
i agree. I may not do the flint but it won't be an in-line for sure. And, not scope or aiming dot. Just iron sights, powder, patch, and ball. No fancy sabots.
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by jaxtix » Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:36 pm

I hear ya' Jeremiah! Watch yer' top knot! :lol:
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Boats » Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:43 am

jaxtix, sorry if I raised your danded, yes I do use an inline, use the sabots, and pellets. No this isn't a true traditonal, but the question was for muzzle loader. The inline is a muzzle loader, I use this in place of my 30-06 semi-auto. One shot one kill, I also use both compound and recurve bows. I'm looking into flint-locks as we speak, this is a true traditonal and I hope to have one soon. This is not to start a battle by the way, just had to answer you in a friendly way, I do see your point but again, the question was for muzzel loader. I got on this sight to get more of a feeling for the traditonal rifles.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Boats » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:41 pm

O.K. guys - what do you guys use as traditonal - I'm ready to step in that direction from my inline. Let me know good and better guns and set-ups. That's the reason I got on this site. You learn best from those that do it. Started out with a shot gun then went to a 30-30 then a 30-06 then to an inline and now I want to go to a real traditonal but am scherching for help with this.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by traddad » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:24 pm

Boats, some nice 'trad' rifles our;
  • Pedersoli's missouri River Hawken (pricey $1000)
    October Country Sporting
    Thompson Center (trad line)
    Collector's Armoury
    Kahnke Gun Works (western traditional)
Should be able to google these. If not, let me know and I'll round up some links for you.
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by jaxtix » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:58 am

Boats, no problem here. My dander is too old to get raised unless somebody throws a punch! I was just stating my opinion. Unless you are refering to: "I hear ya' Jeremiah! Watch yer' top knot!" That was in reference to the Hawken rifle and Jeremish Johnson. Almost forgot (old dander is fading) here is link with lots of links to muzzle loading: www.nmlra.org jaxtix :D
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Boats » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:01 pm

thanks jaytrix for the info. Yes there is some real scraps out there about what one uses compaired to what someone else uses. Got a guy that shoots a pistol and he talks about all the deer he shoots that have arrows hanging out of them!!!??!!! I'm finding out he loses more deer than he bags. I have 142 baged deer and one lost by arrow and two lost by shot gun. My falt.... Everyone of the loses hurt too. I have taken deer with everything except a flint lock and a cross bow. I'm already 65 and want to do this before it's time to watch TV. I'm looking for a good "traditonal" black powder gun, I guess it doesn't have to be flint-lock it could be cap. I'm just feeling out this site for information. I welcome any and all help. There is a Thompson at a store just south of here and the owner told me he'd let me try it out as it's used, I'll have to take him up on that. Nine more days and bear season opens, can't wait, going with a recurve this year. I got a nice one with an old 35 year old compound last season, the boar want 12 yards and folded up, heart and both lungs with a compleat pass through. I ate the whole thing already and am looking forward to getting more in the freezer. {Wow, am I getting windy} have a good season and shoot a biggie.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by jaxtix » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:45 pm

65! My gosh man. I didn't know anyone was that old....I'm only66, so we are kinda' kindred spirits in that department. I don't feel old and Thank God I have rather good health. But I have been lazy lately and I have to whip back into shape before season and just because I feel better when I do. :D
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Canerod » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:38 pm

I'll start by recommending Lyman and T/C. Both are well-made, affordable for most, and will get the job done while still looking good above the mantle the rest of the year.

To me, traditional means a muzzleloader that is styled and functions like an original design. Most reenacting groups put a cutoff date, such as 1850, and operate under the premise that the gun should be similar to one produced and available before that date. T/C's traditional line, Lymans Great Plains Rifle and such do not meet the strict letter of the law, but are generally included due to price and availability.

I hunt with recurves or longbows, selfbows, and traditional (to me) muzzleloaders. I have and use a Great Plains .50 flintlock, a Wilderness Rifles .50 flint longrifle, a .36 underhammer percussion I built myself (design is a 1830's patent) and a Pedersoli SxS 12ga percussion shotgun. Only the underhammer and the longrifle are true to the original designs, since the Lyman has coil springs in the lock and an adjustable sight and the shotgun has flush mount choke tubes, but they're close enough for me. I'd rather be out hunting than agonizing on whether or not my gun is HC.

Bottom line, decide what fits your needs, wants and budget, then have fun.
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Boats » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:52 pm

canerod - I see you are a Maine Guide, hunted bear there once and would like to make a returne trip in a couple years. I do not want to go back with the guide I had though. Where you located etc. send a PM if that's more appropriate. Thanks for all the information. Oh, I'm a die-hard bow hunter when it comes to bear, they're to easy to get anyother way in my oppion.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Shep » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:37 am

I've used a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle for about 12 years now. It is an extremely accurate rifle, but the company went out of business many years ago. I picked mine up at a Black Powder Rendevous for $400.

If you have the means and want a truly beautiful flintlock check out some of Danny Caywood's creations at http://www.caywoodguns.com. Also, look at the Naional Muzzleloading Rifle Association. There you should be able to find a Rendevous schedule in your area where you can learn all about traditional muzzleloading. The theme of the Rendevous here in Washington are pre 1840 technology. They are a lot of fun for the whole family.

Keep your powder dry. Pellets too, if'n that's your style. :D

Shep

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Canerod » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:57 am

Boats,
Sent ya a PM.

Thanks,

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by scattershot » Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:47 am

Well, for my money you can't beat a Thompson/Center Hawken. Maybe not as authentic as some, or as pretty as others, but they have a lifetime guarantee, and are made in the good ol' US of A. Tough as nails, but if you break it, they'll fix it. First time out, I'd go with a percussion, but they make flinters, too. I cover the shiny bits on mine with camo tape for hunting, or you could go with a Renegade, which doesn't have any to begin with.

Good luck, and good shootin'!

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Whitewolf » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:02 pm

I agree with Canrod. Lyman or T/C, and for the reasons he stated. I have a .50 Renegade (I'm not sure T/C makes them anymore). It's basically a plain version of the Hawken. 72gr of honest to goodness real 3f BP behind a patched round ball. Oh, yeah! 8-)

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by hoot » Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:59 am

to me traditional is hunting . recurve , longbow , selfbow, wooden arrows , flinr or cap lock . but then there is killing . inline, crossbow, compound bow . slug gun . i find great satisfaction in hunting deer with my selfbow . but when its needed i dont hesitate to fill the freezer using a slug gun or my 40 cal. hawken . there is a big difference between hunting deer , and killing deer . just my 2 cents , h
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Redfeather » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:25 am

Well, I shoot a longbow with POC arrows and sometimes my old Bear recurve. I guess you could say that I am a traditional bowhunter. I even get TBM magazine. As far as muzzleloading, I shoot a modern Knight inline. I make no appologies for this, because this is what works for my hunting situation. I use it to hunt in a primitive weapons area which only allows archery, muzzleloaders and shotguns. I use iron sights and lead conicals; no sabots, or pellets. Is this traditional? No, not in my opinion, It's practical. But, I have roughly the same limitations as those using more traditional gear. My problem with inlines is not whether they are traditional or not, as I could care less whether someone else is traditional. My problem is when people push the parameters with high power loads and sabots, which are achieving near center-fire velocity and accuracy, because this defeats the origional purpose of a muzzleloader season, and affects the traditional muzzleloader. The only reason this bothers me is that harvest rates may affect muzzleloader seasons. It's kind of like the whole crossbow dilemma. Sorry about my rant. I think traditional is anything that represents an earlier time (not the 1980's.) When I think of traditional, I think of flintlocks, and mountain man-era percussions, Quigley-style Sharps, black powder revolvers, anything pre-1900. I want to go the traditional route and buy a flintlock or caplock; maybe a .36 cal for hares and .50 for big game.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by String Cutter » Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:28 am

Well... "To me" Traditional is a Hawkin type rifle w/ open sights . Inlines aren't tradtional IMHO.
I use to hunt with a Remington 700ML w/a scope that shot snuff can size groups at 100yrds.... It shot better groups then a Marlin 30-30 I once had... Now please tell me how it was more challenging ... more tradional????
I now have a Cabelas 50cal Hawkens I hunt with... Shooting ball and patch. Just because I wanted to step it up a notch.
Now please don"t take me wrong? I ain't bashin in-lines. Hunt with what ever makes you happy. And I'll do the same.But please don"t try to pass off an inline with the high powered scoped, sabet bullets and 150 grains of pellets that shoot sub groups out to 150 yrds.as a Tradional weapon...
I do believe that there are 2 types of muzzlerload hunters... Ones that do it cause they want to lengthen their deer hunting season which if fine. And those that do it because they like the added challenge of doing it the hard way and the beauty of the weapons they carry.
Same goes for the Bow season.... Some guys use Xbow, compounds and shoot out to 50 + yrds .. While others use selfbows, longbows,and recurves 20-25 yrds ?
Hunting is differant for differant people. We all take differant things and give differant things to it.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Lefty Red » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:58 am

Traditional to me is walnut and blue steel! Anything else is modern!

I use inlines for hunting. I load the most acurate load, be it sabot or bullet. Its out of respect for the game I hunt and kill. I want them to go down fast. I don't care if its from a sidelock or an inline. What's and inch to the left or right?

Do inlines give the shooter an unfare edge over sidelocks or flinters? I think not. Most any modern made rifle or any "action" is capable of great groups benched at the range. That goes out the window in the woods and a buck in your sights. One might be more weather proof than another. A good shooter will shoot good with anything.

Are inlines raping the game with larger kills? I doubt it. I think an ethicial hunter uses the best equipment to take the animal as quick as possible. Its not about style or ego, its about being a responisable hunter. Patched balls are great for paper targets at the range or turkey shoots. They are the least desirable for taking deer size game.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Roger Norris » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:14 pm

My sons and I have killed deer with inlines, and recently a flintlock. My inline ML is more accurate, at longer range, than a quality slug gun. In my opinion, aside from hand assembling the load, it has nothing to do with muzzloading/black powder. In Michigan, our muzzloader season allows inlines, and I have no problem if someone chooses to use one, as I said, i have in the past. But I won't any more. Not what the season is about for me.
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Longhunter » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:10 am

Traditional muzzleloaders are akin to traditional bows. In my opinion they both put more fun and challenge into the hunt than so called "modern" equipment.

I've been shooting recurves and longbows for well over a half century and traditional muzzleloaders, mostly flintlocks for 35 years. I've never owned a compound or an inline and I'm too old to change. :lol:

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Longhunter » Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:05 am

Patched balls are great for paper targets at the range or turkey shoots. They are the least desirable for taking deer size game.

Lefty
I respectfully disagree with you Lefty. Patched roundballs have been used successfully in muzzleloading rifles and smoothbores since guns were invented. I personally have used them on game from squirrels to moose for 35 years. Should you shoot at game from 200yd's like you would with a sabot loaded inline?...No. Should you stalk to within 75yd's or less in insure an accurate shot that has sufficient energy to put the animal down?...Yes. Therein lies the difference between modern and traditional muzzleloaders and also bows and arrows IMHO...the challenge of getting close and taking game in the manner of our forefathers.

In my early years I took a lot of game with a high powered rifle. I made several trips out west with a Weatherby 300mag for deer and elk. In those days the most important thing to me was to take game in the easiest and most efficient manner possible. As I grew older I found that I got greater satisfaction giving the animal a more even break and at the same time putting more challenge into the hunt by using more primitive/traditional style weapons.

We all hunt in the manner that gives us the most enjoyment and satisfaction and I would never chastise anyone for their choices as long as it is legal. There are some that look down their noses at traditionalist and say they are running around the woods playing Danial Boone using weapons that should be outlawed because they are inadequate and only wound game.

To those people I say, Don't rain on my parade and I won't rain on your's

John Kennedy once said when talking about going to the moon, "We do this not because it is easy but because it is hard" It's human nature to challenge ourselves, sometimes it just takes us awhile to get to that point in our journey. ....peace :)

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Tajue17 » Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:18 am

agree'd! Ilove the patch round balls--> why would I shoot a slow twist rifled barrel with a bullet? anyway I'm going back a bit further in time and reaching for the smooth bores because theres just something about them, accuracy is a thing to think about but why set-up where your shot will be 100 yards when you must find the rigth run and your shot will be 30yds same as my trad bows I head into the areas where the deer have no choice but pass me at 15-20yds its then that I know I beat them on their own turf. back to muzzleloaders,, my father shoots an inline and I hate the thing I'll take a custom flinter over that any day--> with that being said I do really want to get a civil war era rifle (1861 3-band 58) and load that with a mini and hunt deer with it...

as for Ron Leclair please don't tell us that you shoot as good with a flinter as you do with a longbow,, do you shoot smoothbores? man I need to pick your brain and get some pointers from you if I can.

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Lefty Red » Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:31 pm

Long Hunter

I agree with you that patch and ball will take game. I have taken squirrels to whitetails with a Kentucky Rifle kit I built in 1982, just a jr high kids that like "old" stuff. But I still say they are the least desirable bullet to take game.

With that said, 1800 longhunters held high praises for smaller caliber flintlocks (40-32) for their ability to take game with little waste in ball and powder.

There is a connection between the past and smokepike. I haven't lost it even with hunting with modern inlines.

Does it make you a better hunter when using a traditional rifle? I say no. You have to wait and have more restriant due to using an patched ball and shorter range. I hunter with smoothbore slugs the first five years of hunting. No one ever heard of a slug barrel. You used the same gun to take small and large game. That will teach you to get close and hold your shots.

I wish I could use a centerfire rifle for deer here in IL. Maybe I would have a different look at MLs. That and not having to shoot them on the "wrong" side all the time! LOL But they are a tool to most. And most want to use the most effective tool for the job.

Watch your knottop.

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I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Roger Norris » Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:48 pm

A flintlock is to an inline what a longbow is to a compound.
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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Longhunter » Fri Dec 26, 2008 3:28 pm

John Kennedy once said when talking about going to the moon, "We do this not because it is easy but because it is hard" It's human nature to challenge ourselves, sometimes it just takes us awhile to get to that point in our journey.
Having said that, there are obviously some people that will never get to that point.... :lol:

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Lefty Red » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:18 am

Rodger

A great comparison. But to look at an earlier post, I don't really think its the rifle's design that gave you the longer range of taking an animal, but the projectile. A fast twist barrel on a flintlock Kentucky rifle, and now is it traditional? Or a matchlock with the same fast twist barrel?

Longhunter

A great quote. But, I do understand the "feel" you get when you put on clothes made from last year's vension. The sticks on my fingers from the needle and snew. The travels and looks I got from trying to find a can of honest to goodness BP. The journey isn't something lost to me. I started it long ago as a tween after watching way too many movies and shows. Back before the internet and online boards. When it was a chore to get info and you had to travel a ways to talk and be taught about proper uses of these weapons and their history. I delievers papers and cleaned stalls to earn my first kit rifle. I made my first powder horn (and several after that) and haversack. I skinned and tanned to make my leggings and shirt. Nothing bought everything learned and made. No shortcuts.

So I may have taken your quote to mean that I'm not as lucky as some. So be it. I've never been able to pick up a catalog and use a credit card to outfit me form head to toe in one call and be an instant buckskinner. I've yet to win a ribbon form the most "historically correct" camp site at gathering.

To all

Its not ability or ego that should drive you to hunt with a ML. Trying to push away, label, or seperate weapons is not the smartest thing in the world. They my not be assault rifles now, but at one time in history they were the top of the line defense rifles of this country. And to think a liberal president and congress will leave a flintlock be and take an inline or electric inited ML away is short thinking. ALL WEAPONS are capable of being banned at any time.

Also, a good hunter/shooter isn't worried about what they have in hand at the time. A good woodsman got that way not by dressing up or using period correct instruments. They got that way from hands on pratice. They got that way from spending time in the woods or at the range. Not by reading about buckskinners or sash patterns. Are you a better hunter/woodsman because I would rather have an old H&R singleshot 12ga as my woods running weapon besides a custom made flinter? I know my abilities, and none were purchased only earned.

BTW, I didn't "troll" around looking for a place to argue. I was invited over from MM. I thought, "cool, a place to talk about some of my favorite weapons!" I thought this might turn out to be an online BACKWOODSMAN. So far, its been a pain. The same crap that turned me away from gatherings and hunting with earlier weapons.

Lefty
I'll be needing that for squirrels and such.....

Pilgram, are you sure you can skin a Griz.....

I ain't never been lost.....been a might confused a month or so.....

We walk softly among the natives.....

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Longhunter » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:34 am

Hey Lefty,...I'm not criticizing you for your choices in weapons and equipment. Nor am I suggesting that the weapon makes the hunter. You were the one that said
Patched balls are great for paper targets at the range or turkey shoots. They are the least desirable for taking deer size game.
I was merely disagreeing with your statement. :arrow: I like many others on this form choose to hunt with flintlocks loaded with real black powder and patched round balls. I and others choose this not because we've..."seen too many movies" or because we feel we are elitist...but because we like the "challenge" of hunting with the same kind of weapon that our forefathers used. It gives us a "connected" feeling.. if you will. If you've been there and done that as you suggested then you should understand that.

Now that you've "moved on" so to speak and embrace the modern inline.....that's fine, I wish you many happy hunts with your ML.... BUT please DON'T suggest that round balls are only good for paper targets and turkey shoots because it's offensive to us that love them and use them successfully every day.....peace :)

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Re: what is traditonal

Post by Captchee » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:16 am

hello all .
im new here so some information about myself .

i live in idaho and love to hunt .
since the late 1970's i have only used flintlocks
i own my own custom traditional muzzleloader business building and refurbishing traditional muzzleloaders .

I thought I would chime in here alittle bit .
Historically traditional muzzleloaders have been known for supreme accuracy well beyond ranges toughed by today’s modern inlines . that’s not just bench shooting but also off hand .
Shooting prone with open sights , unless something has changed in the last year . The long range record is still held by a traditionally framed muzzleloader with 3 ,10X at 2000 yards .

Primarily I shoot RB , I do use a heavy conical when im hunting bull elk in the hells canyon or Salmon river areas . However that’s not because a RB will not do the job and it cleanly . Its basically because a few yards in those areas can make the difference between eating the bull where it drops or actually getting it home .
Myself I have found through the years that the RB is very effective when used within its limitations .
This is IMO no different then the confines used with archery . If you step outside those limitations or boundaries you increase the chance of having a less the desirable outcome .

I also believe that today people are confused when folks make the statement that using a traditional weapon makes you a better hunter .
I think this stems from maybe a conception that harvesting game is the measure of a hunter .That ethics come into play and that by making such a statement a person that doesn’t use traditional weapons are somehow less then ethical .
i think the same is also true in the belief that using modern technoligies somehow makes a hunter more ethical
This IMO isn’t true
IMO there is a lot more to it .
When you use a weapon that confines your range , so many things come into play .
In reality , its not that hard to get within 150 200 yards of your target even if they see you .
However knowing that you must be within a given range . Be that range 25 yards -100 is much more difficult even when your not seen . .
So does it make you a better Hunter , no not really . But does it require greater knowledge in your skill to be consistent , ya , I think it can ..
Someone else here mentioned that it wasn’t the modern inline that was the problem but all the technologies that come with it .
I would agree with that . If they are confined to the same standards of loose powder and such , the differences are minimal . Yes there are still benefits , but the average person isn’t going to notice those .

Again for the record IMO the RB is a very good round when used within its limitation . If one chose not to be confined by those , then they should not use them .

as to what is or is not traditional ? well inlines can be traditional there are a number of inline ignitions to include flintlock dating clear back to around 1710 . however these have very little in common with todays modern designs.
as a note on this . many of these designs . like the first model Hall rifles were actually produce in numbers far exceeding those made by makes like Hawkens , in the very same time frame . but again , these have very few if any similarities to the modern designs

Spotted Horse
Spike Bull
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Joined:Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:04 pm

Re: what is traditonal

Post by Spotted Horse » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:42 pm

Lefty Red wrote: Patched balls are great for paper targets at the range or turkey shoots. They are the least desirable for taking deer size game.

Lefty
Actually I find PRB's very desirable for all big game, such as moose, caribou, elk, and deer. I've shot my share of each of those species in the last 40+ years, and the PRB has always done it's job very well.

YMHS,
Spotted Horse

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