Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

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Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby zeek from coon creek » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:34 pm

I have been inspired by Petew's Southern Mt. rifle build thread. I have had the stock and components to build a Lehigh Valley style rifle for several months now but have been reluctant to start for fear of marring such a nice stock. I got the stock really cheap on E-bay then went to Tip Curtis Frontier Shop which happens to be about 40 minutes away and got him to identify the stock as to school then I got all the necessary components to build an iron mounted rifle. I think the term is Schimmel...here in the south we just call 'em "poor boys". Anyway, I've started work as the attached photos will show. I've got a PM out to Captchee regarding the triggerplate and am waiting on a reply before I tackle that. There is plenty of other work to keep me busy a long time. I'm sorry I didn't get any pictures before I started working on the stock; the batteries were dead in my camera and I didn't have any on hand.
flintlock build 004.jpg
Stock and major components
flintlock build 006.jpg
Barrel and tang fully inlet
flintlock build 007.jpg
Lock fully inlet
flintlock build 008.jpg
view of rifle from lock side.
Attachments
flintlock build 005.jpg
Closer view of buttstock
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby zeek from coon creek » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:37 pm

Oh, by the way for those who want to know, that is a 3/4" X 36" Green Mt. barrel in .40 caliber round ball twist.
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby Captchee » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:14 am

Zeek .
looking good so far .

did you get my reply to your message ?
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby zeek from coon creek » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:06 am

Captchee wrote:Zeek .
looking good so far .

did you get my reply to your message ?


Thanks, Captchee, and no, I didn't receive your reply, but thanks for sending it.
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby hanshi » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:12 pm

It appears that you will have a very nice rifle when you're through. Short, lightweight and in a fine caliber.
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby petew » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:19 pm

Sweet little rifle. I found the hardest part was getting up the nerve to cut into the great wood. I haven't done anything since the last post on mine because Bow Season is here. :applaud: and I need the barrel underlugs . Got the steel to make them, just need to git-r-done . What plans for a finish do you have? I talked myself into an Aquafortis finish with Tru Oil on top. I also plan to attempt a brown barrel and steel / iron trim. I am still up in the air for the Butt plate style . My big obstacle is finding parts up here and the money to pay for them . All these little things add up fast.

Keep us posted on your progress.
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby zeek from coon creek » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:06 pm

If I can get it I want to try aquafortis with boiled linseed and tung oil like Captchee shows in his building from a parts set build along. I think that is the most awesome finish I've ever seen. I really am blessed to have a builder's dream supply store only about 40 minutes away. Tip Curtis Frontier Shop is a dangerous place to spend much time in if you have a weakness for fine muzzleloading guns. At any time he will have somewhere around 100 guns smoothbores and rifles assembled in the white on display and each and every "model" of gun he makes is also available in a precarved stock, lock, barrel and hardware kit at a savings of several hundred dollars if you have the guts to put it together. His precarves have the barrel channel and ramrod hole but the rest of the inletting is up to you. Anyway, I digress, parts are not hard to find, but they are still pretty expensive. The barrel, lock, furniture and small parts for this rifle were about $400 if I remember correctly.
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby Captchee » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:19 am

zeek from coon creek wrote:
Captchee wrote:Zeek .
looking good so far .

did you get my reply to your message ?


Thanks, Captchee, and no, I didn't receive your reply, but thanks for sending it.





Well dang ?? I don’t even see it in my box anywhere .
Ok so
Yes the trigger plate can be thinner . But looking at you photos , you should not need to thin it .
If you do decide to thin the plate down , keeping the tab for the trigger pivot is up to you .
The trigger being attached to the trigger plate is a relatively modern thing . Most originals that I have seen with single pivot triggers , had the trigger pinned through the stock . IE the trigger slides up through the trigger plate , aligns with the pivot hole and a pin slides through . The plat is then screwed down by the tang bolt and sometimes a rear screw .

As to the center lug on your guard , it gets cut off . The from and rear are the pin locations . They should also be thinned down . No need for them to be as thick as they are .

The reason they come that thick and with 3 sometimes 4 . Is because they are also casting spurs to help in the flow of the metal into the mould
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby zeek from coon creek » Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:30 am

Thanks, Captchee. I will leave the trigger plate as is and inlet it and give the triggerguard the treatment you describe.
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby Winter Hawk » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:50 am

zeek from coon creek wrote:The barrel, lock, furniture and small parts for this rifle were about $400 if I remember correctly.


It looks like his prices have increased (as everything else related to b.p. guns has). $650 for straight barrel kits, $725 for swamped:

http://nmlra.org/awpcp/show-ad/12/tip-c ... 9/barrels/

But the same can be seen at Track, Pecatonica, Dixie etc. The price of steel maybe?

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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby Captchee » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:45 am

I would say the price of most everything . For a very long time , the vast majority of folks , to include myself , have survived on cost plus some level below minimum wage .
IE if it costs you 400 in parts and you put in 100 hours to finish a gun then if your going to get paid minimum wage that gun is going to cost the customer 13-1400.
As the cost of parts go up , our labor has a tendency to go down . There are a whole lot of folks who think 500.00 is to much for a muzzleloader . never mind paying in the 3-5000 where the price should be .
Now you have Burger flippers thinking they deserve 15.00 and hour and at least 1 state which has raised it minimum wage to 15.00 per hour . So now whats going to happen is all the prices are going to go up just like water seeking its own level.
Think on this for just a second .
If you are a machinist and lets say your getting paid 20.00 and hour to turn barrels . The fella sweeping the floor is making minimum wage , lets say that 7.50 an hour . Your making 12.50 more an hour then an entry level job . But suddenly the level of pay for that entry level job is forced , by law to be 15.00 and hour .
So now is your skill only worth 5 .00 an hour more ?
Are all those years and all that time in training worth only 5.00 an hour more then someone who just walked in off the street and picked up a broom ?

I would hope the answer would be NO!!!
So now what ?
The employers are going to have to raise your pay or have you walk out as well and frankly who could blame you.
So what happens is all along the line of production , cost go up .
The guy buying scrap at the metal yard is making more . The guy at the foundry is making more . The truck driver is making more ………… all the way down the line .
But somehow we think that the owner of the business shouldn’t make more . Never mind they are taking the brunt of 99% of the cost of doing business. Frankly that’s just as wrong as expecting the machinist to accept suddenly working for 5.00 over minimum wage . So the business raises it price as well .
Which then in turn means we the consumer ends up paying more for the product .
But guess what , the consumer is also the working class to include those making minimum wage.
So while they are all dancing around about making 15.00 and hour / the Min wage doubling . Guess what , the price of products also double . The reality of it is that no one has any more then they had before .

So compound that with the price of metal going up , the cost of importing that metal as our steel industry tanked years ago do to over abundant regulations which kept us from competing globally and you get inflation

So take look at what old Tips doing and hang on to your hats fellas because the gates have been opened and we all are in for a bumpy ride .
Myself , well this last spring I raised my prices and implemented a shop rate

Any way , sorry about the Rant , ill step down now LOL
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby zeek from coon creek » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:30 pm

Captchee, you are preaching to the choir here. I have long understood that in the long run raising the minimum wage helps no one. And you are right the added costs are always passed on to the end consumer. Businesses have a profit margin they have to meet or cease to exist. To be fair, if you double the floor sweeper's wage then you must double the machinist's wage as well but that never happens. Normally if they raise minimum wage 10% the machinist might see a 2% or 3% "cost of living" raise to compensate for the inflation. Ultimately everyone making more than minimum wage loses buying power when it is raised.
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby zeek from coon creek » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:16 pm

OK, I did it! I got my barrel lugs inletted into the stock and I managed to do it without breaking through into the ramrod channel. The lugs measured .070" thick so I used a 5/64" drill bit and drilled a row of holes where the mortise needed to be then I cleaned out the wood between the holes. I didn't have any thing narrow enough to serve as a chisel so I took an old 3/32" allen wrench and a few minutes of careful work at my grinder and now I have a .070 wood chisel. I was careful not to let it get hot so the metal kept its hardness. Just a few strokes on a fine whetstone and it was razor sharp and made short work of cleaning up the mortises. I don't have a photo to accompany this report. It may seem like I'm not getting much done, but I only work on this when I really have the time to devote to it and never when I'm tired. Working on something like this when you really need to be doing something else or when you are tired is a sure recipe for a mistake of some kind.
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby Captchee » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:39 am

gladd to hear you made it through that task. .
Yep , making small tools to do small jobs , is part of the process IMO
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby hawkthrower » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:48 pm

Capt - guess I need to throw out a "remember when" but guess it wouldn't make any difference...... I've watched things rise and the returns all stay the same - since gas was $.05 a gallon! BTW the present price is 7000% higher than way back when! and everything else has inflated just the same...... the government and the banks call it "growth" and at several % a year you get what we've got ------ on to bigger and better stuff

Zeke That project looks great ! I'm wanting to build my next one from a plank and bits too! :applaud:
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby petew » Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:41 pm

zeek from coon creek wrote:OK, I did it! I got my barrel lugs inletted into the stock and I managed to do it without breaking through into the ramrod channel. The lugs measured .070" thick so I used a 5/64" drill bit and drilled a row of holes where the mortise needed to be then I cleaned out the wood between the holes. I didn't have any thing narrow enough to serve as a chisel so I took an old 3/32" allen wrench and a few minutes of careful work at my grinder and now I have a .070 wood chisel. I was careful not to let it get hot so the metal kept its hardness. Just a few strokes on a fine whetstone and it was razor sharp and made short work of cleaning up the mortises. I don't have a photo to accompany this report. It may seem like I'm not getting much done, but I only work on this when I really have the time to devote to it and never when I'm tired. Working on something like this when you really need to be doing something else or when you are tired is a sure recipe for a mistake of some kind.


I like the way you think outside the box , and make do with what is on hand.
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby zeek from coon creek » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:24 pm

OK, I have made quite a bit of forward progress since my last update. I trimmed off much of the excess wood. I learned a lesson. I should have gotten rid of most of the excess wood on the lock mortices before inletting the lock. There was about an extra 3/8" of thickness there and even though I was sure I was inletting the "walls" straight down they did "bell out" in one area and when I removed the excess wood I found that I have a gap in one spot along the lockplate. I will glue a "dutchman" in and blend it to the stock and maybe it won't show too much. It will certainly beat the gap. Also, I now have the trigger and trigger guard and the ramrod thimbles all inletted. And I have the barrel, trigger guard and thimbles all pinned in. And I have the lock plate screws in as well. All the furniture that's left to install is the nose cap, buttplate and toeplate. I dread the buttplate; I have a hard time getting them to fit without unsightly gaps. I also still have to drill and tap and install the flash hole liner. All in all I'm not too far out from having a functional piece. I ordered some Aqua Fortis from T.O.W. and picked up a can of Boiled Lindseed Oil at the hardware store. I still have to locate some Tung oil. I can find "Tung Oil Finish" the only probelm with it is when you read the can there's not tung oil in it it is just some kind of glorified polyurethane surface coat that supposedly looks like tung when dry.
flintlock build 012.jpg
Here is a view of the rifle with the stock reduced, starting to take on a slender gracful look.
flintlock build 012.jpg (131.28 KiB) Viewed 10031 times
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby zeek from coon creek » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:33 pm

I need some advice from Catchee. I'm attaching a photo below of the rear of the lock mortice or panel or what ever the raised portion the lock mounts into is called. I have an issue. With this slender little 3/4" barrel, when I sanded the lock mortice down just below flush with the lock plate surface, it feathered into the wrist. Is this acceptable? I really don't want to reduce the wrist much if I can avoid it. Had I known this was going to be an issue I would have flared the lock out towards the rear a bit but that is no longer an option. I have been looking at photos of original guns in Muzzleblasts and other sources and I've seen some that appear to have the lock mortice feather into the wrist like this as best I can tell from the photos. Anyway, I'd appreciate any advice on this.
flintlock build 016.jpg
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby zeek from coon creek » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:40 pm

One more question for Captchee. See the photo below. At the rear of the barrel channel there are those two "pockets" that are created by the angle of the barrel flats. It seems like I read someplace that you are supposed to extend the barrel flats rearward and blend them into the wrist to eliminate these corners. I don't think I recall ever seeing a gun done that way. What if anything do you do with this part of the stock?
flintlock build 014.jpg
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby Captchee » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:15 am

On the lock mortise . Its really up to you . I would just sand them flat . personally I never much care for the blended look . If you just block sand the face , it will leave a nice crisp line with a sharp tail that will naturally come down and blend with the wrist . No need for fance beaver tail carvings or relief .


IMO and its your rifle do as you see fit . But IMO your real problem is the back of the mortise , just rear of the lock .
What I would do is make a pencil line drawing of your intended , finished shaped locomotive .
Draw a line around the stock even with the from and rear of thee mortise .
While both mortises don’t have to be exactly the same , the do have to both start and end evenly when viewed from the top or bottom .
On the lock side the mortise shouldn’t have such a large area back of the lock plate . So draw out the mortise tell it pleases you . Then see if the same shape will allow for you side plate on the other side .
In the end reducing your mortise size is going to slim the looks of the gun down . Give the appearance of a longer more slim wrist , as well as make a nice crisp transition onto the stock , without the need for carvings

One each side of the barrel the stock comes down close if not to the barrel flats . Depending on the rifle and considering the lock bolt placement, width of the stock vs. the width of the barrel, you may end up with small tabs on the side flat ..on the lock side , the stock should not stick up above the fence of the lock . In fact it should be a little lower then the fence .
On the side plate side , the step should roll down and out onto the side of the stock . IE it should be concave vs. a strait line .
Now depending on the rifle , some makers would take a gouge and make a small pass down out of the stock on each side for the oblique flats ..
here is a link to a rifle made by David Crisalli . while it does have carving , look past that and note the architecture . See how the stock transitions to the barrel . How the lock mortises transition from the breech area . How the stock transitions from the Tang down across and onto the mortis .
Also you will note that even though this rifle carries a larger early , round faced lock , the mortice face is thin .

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2014/11/david-crisalli-rifle-after-jim-kibler.html
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby zeek from coon creek » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:04 am

Thanks, Captchee, I hadn't even considered shortening or changing the shape of the lock mortice. I guess when us amateurs are building on a precarved stock like this or one from a kit we just assume that however the stock was made is how it is supposed to look. I guess that's why you see so many of the kit guns that look "clunky" even though they were well assembled and finished. That "out of the box" stock just doesn't have the graceful sleder lines it should have. The photos in that link you posted are very helpful. I know I've looked at lots of nicely built guns, but I've always admired the whole package and not paid the close attention to the details that a pro such as yourself does. I know when looking at such a gun that it looks better, but with my untrained eye I can't say why it looks better. It's all in the details. Anyway, it will be after Christmas before I get anything else done because I'm leaving home on Monday the 22nd and won't get back until Saturday the 27th, but then I have the entire next week off until Jan. 5th. I hope to have this project finished and making smoke by then. I'd love to take it on a late season squirrel hunt before season ends.
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Re: Inspired by Petew's rifle build.

Postby petew » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:27 pm

What would we do as amateurs if we didn't have Captchee to bail us out with his knowledge and great suggestions. Your rifle is coming along good Zeek, keep at it.
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