Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

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Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Captchee » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:03 am

Just a little Bit of an echo in here .
Well I have been ask to do a write up so ??/ I guess that’s what I will try and do .
Remember a writer I am not so you all will have to read through my miss spelling and such .
Ill start posting something over the next couple weeks
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby gameslayer » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:16 am

lookin forward to it, I have often wondered what an english teacher would think of my spelling/ punctuation too .probably not much, so you are not alone there .LOl
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby gameslayer » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:25 pm

that is a pretty sad lookin pistol right now , I posted here so as not to clutter your build .
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Linc » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:05 pm

It looks like there is a lot of room for improvemnet to me. I think it will make a fine looking pistol. BTW,I'm used to doing things on a shoestring budget. :D If I can't afford to buy it (which is most of the time) I either have to make it or do without.
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Captchee » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:18 pm

well as i said , this is going to be about as shoe string as we can get :D .
but when starting out , its a very good way IMO to gain experience with little worry of boogering up a 4-700 dollar parts assembly .
Its also a lot of fun when folks say HAAA where did you get that !!!. You can then say , this old CVA / Traditions/Jukar ?? Why I made it
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby gameslayer » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:24 pm

A man offered to sale me a 45 jukar for 75 bucks about 20 year ago but I did not know anything about them ,it was a long smooth bore if I remember right it looked in good shape , can you cut a rifle down and turn it into a pistol?
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby gameslayer » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:53 pm

I hear the new Cva s are better guns nowadays I had a few that were problematic ,with weak springs and a bad sear , but to be fair the ones I had were high mileage tradins , and one untraditional front stuffer was recalled for a big bore size so I just quit using them ,but I hear they are getting it back together pretty good.
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Linc » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:14 pm

Captchee, That is the same way I felt about a .54 cal Cabela's Hawkins I just finished re-doing a few weeks ago. I bought it from a friend and didn't have much money into it. I figured it would be a good way to cut my teeth on building one. :D It was easier than I thought and you would never know it was the same rifle.
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby gameslayer » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:21 pm

Right Linc and you know from lookin at his work it will be something special when he is done.
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby gameslayer » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:47 pm

Captchee it already looks sleeker more streamlined ,I like it.
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Captchee » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:59 pm

gameslayer wrote:A man offered to sale me a 45 jukar for 75 bucks about 20 year ago but I did not know anything about them ,it was a long smooth bore if I remember right it looked in good shape , can you cut a rifle down and turn it into a pistol?


yess you can but really for a pistol there isnt much need unless your looking for a target type pistol in which case you would be better getting a good barrel .
Note here also that a strait rifling EI no twist can be surprisingly accurate at the closer smoothbore ranges
pistols in fact are harder to work on then rifles because they are harder to position to hold . There is as much work in building a pistol as there is in a rifle . This is why the prices of pistols are often very comparable to the price of a rifle .
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby gameslayer » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:10 pm

They are high I just saw a production traditions crockett 32 pistol in Cabelas for230 and the rifle was for sale too.
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby William Three Coons » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:31 pm

Hi Captchee, I am new here, and just saw your workshop picture post and also see this thread is a better thread to reply. Long ago i began with a copy of that same gun you are making a demo of, and I understand this is a demo and not the first gun you ever did!

So I am hoping that while you are doig this project, that maybe you would consider another off side lock plate not brass. Probably steel that can be finished in anything but a gold tone, and could even change shape, but i understand pewter will not be a choice for this either.

I have a scratch built pistol, where scratch means i made the barrel from sold stock breeching it with a plug i made, and the walnut stock came from a 16 foot long plank. I copied a siller lock for a pattern, and did buy a pommel casting and trigger guard from Dixie, as I have no way to cast yet.

This gun cost me some time and 51 dollars over all in junk shop scrap, sand papers fuel and whatnot finish oil.

I have no single picture of it and lumped in with other items it might not be on topic here.

The last thing I want to do is get off on the wrong foot. So I will either wait a while before i post a picture as it is, or take some more pictures when I can.

i won't worry about your spelloing if you don't worry about mine ok?
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Captchee » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:36 pm

cabella will rob you . look arund . i know most years at the Monroe Muzzleloader show up washington those pistols rin anywhere fro 150 -215 new both in flint or precussion .
i find that with most stuff in cabellas if you subtract 100.00 bucks your in the correct price range

the gun works lists the traditions Pioner for 175.00 in kit .
the trapper is 220.00

October country lists the the finished traditions patriot pistol and kentucky for 199.00.
Trappers finished at 254.00
and the traditions parker at 309.00

Dixie has the kentucky for 160.00 and shows the Lyman Pistols "mush better quality IMO " starting at 220 .00
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby gameslayer » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:49 pm

I have heard lots of folks bragging on Lyman it must be a good one ,I did not know that Cabelas was that high I was reading on narrow ways outdoors forum and there is alot of guys who want a 32 rifle I have a 45 and if I hunt squirrels I will just use it, I have about went my limit buying for a while . got to let the wife catch up , we spend the exact same amount at a time.LOL
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Captchee » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:53 pm

William Three Coons wrote:Hi Captchee, I am new here, and just saw your workshop picture post and also see this thread is a better thread to reply. Long ago i began with a copy of that same gun you are making a demo of, and I understand this is a demo and not the first gun you ever did!

So I am hoping that while you are doig this project, that maybe you would consider another off side lock plate not brass. Probably steel that can be finished in anything but a gold tone, and could even change shape, but i understand pewter will not be a choice for this either.

I have a scratch built pistol, where scratch means i made the barrel from sold stock breeching it with a plug i made, and the walnut stock came from a 16 foot long plank. I copied a siller lock for a pattern, and did buy a pommel casting and trigger guard from Dixie, as I have no way to cast yet.

This gun cost me some time and 51 dollars over all in junk shop scrap, sand papers fuel and whatnot finish oil.

I have no single picture of it and lumped in with other items it might not be on topic here.

The last thing I want to do is get off on the wrong foot. So I will either wait a while before i post a picture as it is, or take some more pictures when I can.

i won't worry about your spelloing if you don't worry about mine ok?


Im sorry , i not sure what your asking me ?
Im thinking if your asking if i might consider changing the side plate on this pistol .
While that’s most certainly an option as the sidle plate can be simply cut for 1/8 inch steel cold roll .
Myself I HATE these side plates that came stock on these as well as CVA and many other rifles of the time when this pistol was marketed .
And in fact I normaly change them out to a different style .
But in the case of this pistol I have some things in mind that will clean this up .
Our TG is brass . So what im thinking right now , and that could change . But im thinking that I will add simple CHEEP gold leaf work to the lock plate and engraving I plan on putting on the barrel .
The pewter castings will also be engraved . What your seeing right now is just the outlines and they may very well change in the next day or so . But In my mind having the pewter nose cap , tang inlay , an pommel contrasted with the gold/Brass TG , side plate , barrel engraving and lock plate , its should end up looking nice .
Im still up in the air about checkering the wrist but ?? That will come in time

As to pewter doe plats . I have done these but they have to be deep and of very hard quality pewter or Babbitt in order to hold up .
Obviously if the owner is carful and does not over tighten the lock screws even soft pewter will work . But again its really to soft for that application .

As far as casting of other material . I only do sand casting and do to the limit of my experience and furnace I can only do gold, silver , bronze , brass copper , aluminum in the higher temp range .
See my furnace only goes to 2300 deg anything with a liquid melting point higher , I cant do as a casting
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby gameslayer » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:02 pm

That looks like a nice design to me ! are you going to use a carving knife with a curved tip to dig that out to cast it? I have saw some carving knives at smokey mountain knife works and wondered what they were for.
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Captchee » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:38 pm

gameslayer wrote:That looks like a nice design to me ! are you going to use a carving knife with a curved tip to dig that out to cast it? I have saw some carving knives at smokey mountain knife works and wondered what they were for.


no.
what i use is an exsacto knife . i will cut the beds just as if we were prepairing for say a brass inlay to be set .
i also use swiss chisels for inletting and carving , wrasps and scrapers for shaping . I also use steel files for bring down the wrasp marks.
Once i have desided if this is the patern i want , i show making the beds . i will also go over how to cast the pewter to the stock . its really pretty simple and takes no special equipment
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby William Three Coons » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:47 pm

Yes I was asking if you would consider a steel side plate really, but I had no idea that you were thinking to inlay gold and or engrave anything. I hadn't seen the trigger guard either, and so hadn't thought anout that, but of course if this were going to be a 'poor boy' and did have a steel side plate it then would need a steel guard.

I am sorry to have confused the issue..
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Captchee » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:54 pm

nope , nothing to me sorry abour william , its all about the learning .
the nice thing about doing things like this is i have at times had folks bring up things i never thought of , so ask away .
no budys going to hurt my feelings :lol:

normaly myself on "poor boy " rifles i only use iron TG and rr thimbles .
now i realize there is little documentation for iron and as time goes on many folks are sugesting that the cost of manufacturing of iron as well as the crown laws of the time may very well sugest that a lower quality rifle may not have had any iron at all ???/ but who im i to say , i just dont know .
i do know that their argument as to having iron on a rifle is understandable ??? and i must say a lean to the information possably being correct , but frankly i just dont know
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby gameslayer » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:33 pm

That is ART there Captchee I think you have explained it so well there should not be very many questions! Where are you at Lance ?we need you ,you keep Captchee interested with the questions . Dont let him get bored or he will quit on us.LOL
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby William Three Coons » Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:18 pm

gameslayer, Are you aware of what the pistol stock should have looked like out of the box as a kit?

I saw the grove and went 'Oh No!' Captchee, figures out a very cool way to fix that in a 'traditional' mannor.

Reading and seeing the ideas to fix this blunder is very interesting to me. I understand Captchee was not the one who cut that groove, nor does he know why anyone did. I am not too sure I would have thought of what he did, which is a really good idea.

I am sure when he is done, not anyone will be able to tell on a glance this was a CVA kit. I built one of these kits in about 1972, so I can see what he has and remember what the kit was, and there was NO grove in the kit, and there shouldn't be any grove there.

With the kit all I did was fit the little that needed to be to make the gun work. I stained the wood some, and blued the barrel and made it work and that thing sure was ugly.

At the time it was my 2nd kit, the first being that CVA derringer, and I didn't know better, nor did I know anyone else to teach me.

I can tell for anyone in particular who is 'green' and spends the time reading, maybe better yet getting one of these same kits the lessons Captchee is doing if followed will be a great step forward for anyone new.

I used to get articals like this in Muzzeloader magazine, but between the magazine coming just once a month, a reader had to wait. I remember getting one magazine all chewed up by some machine and the artical I was following closely was ruined. There was no internet then, so I didn't have any other way to get the magazine other than drive to Maine and to the Kittery Trading post and buy another copy.
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby gameslayer » Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:54 pm

I just got back from worsip service ,and read that , but no I am totaly unaware of any gun building knowledge ,but it is very interesting to me and I do think it was a terific Idea ,and anyone can see that it will look better Captchees way ,I have saw a sample of his work and it is outstanding and I know this pistol will look outstanding,but I think he said it was a Jukar brand pistol.By the way I saw your picture and you and your lady look like you just stepped out of history ,I think it is pretty cool you could play in a historic movie.
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Linc » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:37 pm

WOW!!!!!!!!!!! The pewter inlay turned out very nice. I don't imagine silver would be able to be done the same way? Possibly aluminum or are the temps to high also? I do love the looks of pewter. It looks like something I'm going to have to try. :D
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Captchee » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:58 pm

good evening folks .

William is correct , the tang inlet on the pistol never originally came that way .
CVA at one time was made here in the US . Now Jukar is a very old Spanish gun company and like many companies , Browning Remington , Winchester, Ithica , they all jumped on fever for muzzleloading that was the 1970’s and our up coming 200 year anniversary .
CVA and jukar mad almost identical products . One would never know the difference if not from the box or the stamps on the barrels . CVA later became an importer . While they still placed their names on the barrels and boxes , their rifles were made by Jukar .
Traditions now does the same thing in of that they have a sub company of jukar actually makes their product .

But this is neither here or there .
What I am hoping folks get from my humble attempts here , is to show a way to bring new life into that olf rifle or pistol they may have in a closet .
My hope is to stir a little a little bit research so that folks will see that while CVA and now traditions sold kits and that from those kits one could simply put the parts together and go shooting .
But at the same time maybe gain the understanding that so much more work really needed to be done , was capable of being done , to bring those kits closer to a better representation ..

Some of these rifles and pistols turned out to be very good shooters that rival the accuracy of even the best custom gun . Others??/ well not so good .
But I ask you all , does that really mater . The point is that our imaginations gets stirred . That we feel the need to remember a part of history . That maybe we can experience if nothing more then just a small part of what it may have been like to use a muzzleloader .
For me its about the challenge , the understanding and the learning .
Its about trying to pass on something that I see is every day being lost .

So you see , it doesn’t really mater if this piece is a Jukar , CVA , traditions or just a cobbled piece . What maters is we challenge our minds , stir our imaginations and then put our hands to work
Last edited by Captchee on Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Captchee » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:04 pm

Linc wrote:WOW!!!!!!!!!!! The pewter inlay turned out very nice. I don't imagine silver would be able to be done the same way? Possibly aluminum or are the temps to high also? I do love the looks of pewter. It looks like something I'm going to have to try. :D

well no , they cant be cast to the stock like pewter can . the flow temps are just to high pewter melts at around 580 F actually less then lead . thats why we can cast it this way .
but if we were to do silver or aluminum this way the stock wood , would catch and burn
Silver melts at around 1700 and aluminum at right around 1200 if I recall

Now we can cast both those and more in sand
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby gameslayer » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:38 pm

Back when monster garage was on with Jesse James I watched an old man lead arond the headlights and other places on an old car this reminds me of that. but lead melts at 865 I think ,I worked for a while in a factory that dipped guard rails and I got the job of skimming the ashes off the pot and when we drossed the pot we had to wear a firemans suit it was so hot ,it woulld be 90 in the shade outside and you had to wear a firemans suit and stand near that pot and dip the dross from the bottom of the pot into a container, a crane pulled a dipper along the bottom and lifted it up to the side so you could dip the thick waste out with a shovel ,I sure dont miss that job I left it to work in an airconditioner factory .LOL.
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Linc » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:49 am

I'm really looking forward to the next installment. This is new to me as was rebuilding/redoing the Hawkins. But with the Hawkins I already knew something about working and polishing the brass,filing and shaping the wood,smoothing up the wood to metal finish. All the inletting was already done. But this is a whole new world of information. I don't have the space or the equipment for making and working metals but I think pewter is something I will be able to do. :D
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby gameslayer » Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:11 pm

Looks good ,I saw a centaur bow for sale on the stickbow leatherwall with a deer silouette inlay on the handle and wondered how in the world ???, now I know , I can see the grain on that wood is pretty it will look good when you darken it a little or whatever you have in mind .
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Re: Hellooooo??, helooooo helooooo

Postby Linc » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:42 am

Sweet. :D Can the same procedure be used for any materials to be inlayed? I assume it can.

To back up a little, with the pewter, can it be used as a faux wire inlay or would it be just as easy or easier to actually do wire inlay?

Also, I am pleading total ignorance here, but does the pewter stick to the barrel when casting the nose piece? Or does it merely take on a perfect contour of the barrel?
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